Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Kryptogal (Kate, if you like)'s avatar

So, I am someone who falls on one side of your tail (I don't and won't ever have children), however I live in one of the only places in the US that still is at least somewhat (though increasingly less so, year by year) built for large families, ie Utah, and I fully agree with your post.

However, and not to be a downer, but I think this is much more difficult to solve than you indicate. Because for one thing, these changes happened organically as families opted to invest more per child and have less of them in an increasingly competitive world...they were never imposed top down and the structural changes adapted to meet the realities moreso than the other way around. For instance, part of the reason colleges charge so much is because they can. If parents started to refuse to pay, they'd be forced to a drop their prices. But with more small families, and also a lot more RICH families nowadays (at least partly bc of less kids), there are simply enough parents out there willing and able to pay high prices, and wanting to do whatever they can to beat advantage their kids, that there is zero incentive for a university to drop its tuition. They will always charge as much as they can.

That's just one example but it runs to so many things. There are a lot of things in Utah that are clearly different than other places bc people still have, or at least aspire to have, bigger families. But the thing is, they kind of don't work when it's just a minority. It's really hard that way, just on basic economics.

Here's another example: there are a lot more shops and businesses here that are closed on Sundays and closed by 6 pm the other days, than most places in the US, where doing that would be business suicide. It used to be the norm, and now it isn't, and that's bc the vast majority of all adults, or the people who can actually patronize a business and spend money there, are at work M-F til 6. So if you're closed when they're out of work and can actually spend money, you're going to go out of business. This model only works in a place where you still have a critical mass of stay at home parents who can actually shop and buy things during the day. The reason a lot of shop owners want to be closed in the evenings and on Sundays is because they too have big families and they want to go home and be with them. Which makes perfect sense, for the the business owner, if there are enough local customers who can actually patronize your establishment during the weekdays. But if 80% of adults are at work, it doesn't work, and that business being closed in the evenings and on weekends is going to really annoy and piss off the working parents who can't ever go buy something at a shop bc they're always closed when they have actual free time.

There are so, so many little things like that. Kids still run outside and play everywhere here, without adult supervision. But that's bc there are enough kids to do that. Prices for kid-oriented stuff tend to be a lot lower here...again, because the market won't bear higher prices, since parents can't afford it when they have so many kids. If everyone had 1 or 2, and the parents had more cash, those businesses would of course jack their prices up, as they have everywhere else.

A lot of this stuff just ends up being the natural economic outcome of what happens when there are less kids and adults with more disposable cash, at a critical mass. So while I agree with your analysis, I'm not sure what the solution is other than just giving massive subsidies to large families, which would be quite difficult politically.

I suppose one point I'd raise it that it somewhat seems like a silly lost opportunity here, when you also DO have a lot more households with zero children. One would think that childless households would be an obvious source of extra support for parents precisely bc they usually DO have the extra time and money. And yet parents virtually never ask non-parents for help or favors, ever. I think this is bc they often have some distrust of childless people and/or maybe even a little hostility and/or assume they hate or dislike children. I think that's a shame and unnecessary and untrue, and that actually plenty of childless people would be more than willing to pitch in and watch a neighbor's kid or otherwise take a little burden off. They may not want or think they can handle a 24-7, 20-year commitment to kids, but that doesn't mean they aren't happy to help part time or in a pinch. And yet they are virtually never asked and almost assumed to live totally alien and separate lives and I think it's kind of dumb. Like just a silly misallocation where you have one group of people who are overwhelmed and another with excess capacity and no one ever thinks to shift that a bit, as between them, which would be the normal thing to do in most circumstances but it seems like some parents are afraid that non-parents are child hating baby eaters they can't trust or something. To be clear I think that is much more pronounced with men, where people do not want to tolerate the idea of an unrelated non-father ever spending time with a child bc they fear some kind of evil/perverse sexual thing, and is less an issue with women, but even there, I see a lot of excess wasted capacity.

Jennie Chancey's avatar

My husband and I have 12 children (yep—all ours together). We basically decided to ignore “the system” and build our own family culture in spite of it. That has meant sometimes living in houses people would consider too small (even when we “only” had five children). I made the decision not to over-schedule our kids but to make sure we had opportunities to get together with other families at church and in the neighborhood to play, eat meals, and socialize. We lived overseas for eight years due to my husband’s work, and the last place we lived for five years was a tiny village in South Africa where the children could freely roam and where dozens of retirees taught classes—everything from piano to pottery to woodworking. It was an absolute boon for a big family—not paradise, but definitely far more supportive than the modern American town. When we returned to the US, we made the decision to move back to my husband’s hometown and buy a “fixer-upper” 1906 house in the oldest section of town…within walking distance of downtown and a local park. We have since finished out the back cottage for our older sons to live in while they continue to work and save, and we just added another small cottage for our oldest daughter. We are sticking to a nearly extinct model of family-building where everyone learns to pitch in and help each other succeed. Our second son married two years ago, and he and his wife chose to buy a house two blocks from us. They have the same vision of sticking together and helping one another—even if it’s just moral support and socialization. The oldest teens put together a business plan for a small coffee shop in 2020, since our downtown didn’t have one. They made it a school project, and Kickstarter raised the funds for it. We have since grown into a farm-to-fork bistro. One son is the chef, two others are baristas, two daughters bake and do clean-up. Large families really have to create their own job opportunities and educational options for their children without a societal support network backing them up. In this age of AI kicking people out of jobs, our children are all very motivated to “AI-proof” their lives and work with their hands and in service to others. I couldn’t be more proud of them. It has been a lot of very hard work, plus a lot of prayer and many sleepless nights, but the end results are so worth it. Kids don’t need iPads and endless entertainment—they need to feel needed. In a big family, we all need each other, and that is a beautiful thing. I am very thankful for parents who gave us the tools to do this…in spite of a massive cultural shift away from large families.

79 more comments...

Ready for more?